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Sick Plant Yellowing Leaves are Spreading

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Terpinolene
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Hi all, I had a problem a couple of weeks ago that you guys were really helpful with and gave loads of great advice on.

https://percysgrowroom.com/forum/diagnosis-form/drooping-leaves/#post-126206

Right at the end of that thread I mentioned I noticed some yellowing on the lowest leaves 

That has since spread and a number of those lower leaves have died off, and the yellowing has now reached the upper nodes of both plants. I'm also seeing some purple stems.

Could it be nitrogen deficiency? Or nutrient lockout manifesting as yellow (and still drooping/curling) leaves? Or something else?

Bit of extra info... 

Since my first post here, I bought a PH pen and it looks like the PH strips I have been using up until now have been inaccurate. So all this time I thought I had been watering with ph 6.5, it's actually been closer to 5.8.

Could that dodgy pH level for 4 weeks cause my issues? Or could it be the type of pH down I'm using be poisonous:  VitaLink pH down (a concentrated 81% phosphoric acid).

On Saturday I'd convinced myself it was nutrient lockout so did a flush on the worst of the 2 (the CBD plant, Picture of Problem photo below) and have not really seen much of a change to be honest.

Did a normal feed and tested the runoff of the Northern Lights plant last night. It was showing as just under 6.2. what should it be?

Northern Lights

PXL 20230327 085827869

Just really worried that both plants are slowly dying and I'm missing the opportunity to save them.

Any advice would be really appreciated.

Grow Medium
Grow Light
Temperature C/F : (Light on/off)
Humidity
Picture of Problem
1679931719-PXL_20230327_085817297.jpg
Nutrients

Biobizz Light soil, Biobizz alg-a-mic, Biobizz grow

pH Level
Feed Frequency
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monkeydo
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Posted by: @pistoleer

On Saturday I'd convinced myself it was nutrient lockout so did a flush on the worst of the 2 (the CBD plant, Picture of Problem photo below) and have not really seen much of a change to be honest.

Did a normal feed and tested the runoff of the Northern Lights plant last night. It was showing as just under 6.2. what should it be?

My first suspicion would be over watering. If you flushed the plant on Saturday and did a normal feed on Sunday night.. that’s too fast in soil unless it’s a large plant in a small pot. That would be more like a coco grower should do but not so much in soil. The droopy leaves and lower canopy going yellow all point to the root zone so again I’m looking at watering practices. The ph being off can definitely create issues too and you might be looking at more than one cause. 

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Terpinolene
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Thanks @monkeydo - just to clarify. I did the flush on the CBD on Saturday, and then on Sunday the normal feed was on the Northern Lights.

But thanks for advice on the root zone, it almost certainly must be related to the pH of the water being so far off.

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WeedKiller
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My guess would be over watering combined with the environment. It also looks like you might have a nitrogen toxicity from the way the tips of the leaves look. Can you send more pictures of the plants or plant. 

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Terpinolene
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Thanks @weedkiller - here are a few more.

PXL 20230327 085846829
PXL 20230326 083553933
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WoodI2
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what do you mean by this?

Posted by: @pistoleer

Feed Frequency
2 days

Do you have a moisture meter?

PXL 20230201 202018044
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Terpinolene
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Sorry @woodi2 - every 2 days I alternate feed/water

And no, I don't have a moisture meter.

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WoodI2
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@pistoleer, there's your problem I believe, their are not drying out enough and staying wet enables them to take up more nitrogen and cause other problems, but I am also just learning this too so your not the only one. My suggestion would be to get a moisture meter and let them dry out more and see what they look like then. these moisture meters are priced around $10-$15 usd. 

Someone with more soil experience may be of more help. Keep up with it and you'll get it figured out. 

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Mix
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@woodi2 them meters are pretty basic 

I don’t trust them one iota put one in says wet next day I wake up the plants flopped over from thirst 

I wouldn’t recommend them 

yeah my first thought was it looks overwatered is it from a flush or your normal watering I dunno 

you can disagree all you like however it’s a fact that overwatered plants leaf’s will yellow. not saying that’s your main problem just saying it’s a fact that overwatered plants will go yellow.

you have many problems this one’s showing clawing from to much n 
It’s not just one problem you have but many.

image

 

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twisted1
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@mix them meters work well for moisture and are fairly accurate for soil ph. i have tested all 3 of mine in Ph'd water and all 3 have read correct.

they are a good tool to use to learn watering practices. and great for checking on the soils Ph

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@twisted1 the twin ph ones do give a fair ph reading.

I dunno about watering ones thou I think they are only good once you already understand how to water properly as the readings can be hard to decipher as they can say wet when they need watering.

when I started out & used them I found I was watering to much due to them being so basic.

I still can’t recommend them not after using them. The ph ones I can’t say are that bad they are fairly accurate 

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twisted1
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@mix they work well for watering also  they have a markings for wet the far end of the scale (blue) the middle of the scale shows normal range in (green) and dry is (red).

when the needle shows low in the green its time to add water.  it has no control over how fast a plant uses the moisture in the soil it can only show what is there which gives you a visual reference.  if used correctly it can help a new grower understand when its time to water.

Soil drainage has a lot to do with how long it remains wet. some soil mixes drain much faster than others.

 

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@twisted1 

think your cool the way we can disagree without it going south 👍🙂 and remain informative 

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twisted1
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@mix lol yeah no drama here brother.

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@pistoleer, I you have more than one thing going on here, so it is hard to say with any certainty, especially if you were getting wrong readings with the pH paper (which is unusual).

First, have you calibrated your new pH meter and checked it against distilled water or a calibration fluid?

Secondly, if you have been feeding in solution that was actually 5.8, then that can definitely cause issues with NPK, plus at that pH you totally lock out Ca, Mg and Mo.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, you are in soil, right?  Why are you feeding so frequently and at what level?  Soil contains most of the needed nutrients (good soil requires only water), and decent soil requires only a light feeding now and again.  Can you tell us more about your soil and feed?  What brand? What concentration or EC are you feeding? Is that actually happening every 4 days?

Info which might help generally: flushing soil is a pretty drastic step because it really alters your nutrition in ways you cannot predict, it requires a lot testing to know what you end up with, and you run the risk of water-logging your soil which can cause a many other problems. Unlike with coco, it takes a lot of effort and time to flush soil -- it is not a quick overnight re-set.  Generally speaking, I think good advice for flushing soil is to monitor the run-off until you are half-way to your target pH, allow the plant to uptake that moisture for a good week or so (depending on plant/pot size), then repeat until you reach you target pH.  Then, with testing you need to amend at the proper rates to replenish the nutrients washed away.

With soil, less is more so go slowly and monitor. Hope that helps.

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Terpinolene
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Thanks @im_sparky - lots of helpful pointers here.

Ph meter - yes, calibrated with distilled water

Soil - BioBizz Light Mix, by all accounts as it's 'liggt' I do need nutrients, I introduced Alg-a-mic and BioGrow at a quarter of the BioBizz recommended rate, as suggested here on Percy's.

Completely agree about flushing being a drastic step, but I needed to do something. The yellowing is now on almost every leaf, lower leaves are almost all yellow or well on their way now, upper leaves have the curled tips yellow.

Although I appreciate the feedback, I'm not sure I agree with the others when overwatering is being suggested. I am watering every other day (adding nutrients every other water) and at each water, the soil is dry and the pot weight is light.

 

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twisted1
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Could you post a  couple good pics showing the leafs and the issues.

Also i see you are using the alg a mic and Bio grow. are you also using any Calmag supplements?

Ive never used this line of nutrients but others here have. I believe in flower you should be using the Bio Bloom also.  So bio grow, Bio bloom, and calmag  being the main ones needed ive also seen others using the top max.   if your not using the bloom and a calmag you may not be giving them all they need.  here is a copy of the feed schedule from the manufacture hope this helps.

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Terpinolene
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Cheers @twisted1 - I think you may have touched on something so blindingly obvious I feel like a tw*t just writing this...

Could all this be due to the fact that the plant is grabbing at what nutrients it can from the leaves (hence the yellowing and dying leaves) because I haven't introduced flowering nutrients?

I mean, I am in flowering stage aren't I?

CBD:

PXL 20230329 104715853
PXL 20230329 104636001

Northern Lights:

PXL 20230329 104810989
PXL 20230329 104732250
PXL 20230329 104753961

I have stuck to the plan I have, so I have only used alg-a-mic and bio-grow so far, no calmag, bloom or topmax.

Thanks again.

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@pistoleer Dont feel that way. we all had to learn. ive had my share of issues and still do.

i just noticed on the lower leaves in the previous pics that there was interveinal chlorosis (sorry cant spell this morning) but the yellow stripes between the veins of the leaf this is what Mag deficiency looks like. cal mag helps prevent this. You can mix up a teaspoon of epsom salt with a quart of water and spray it on the leaves to help just try not to spray the flowers, just take the plants out from under the lights or dim lights when you spray and wait until its dry to replace them under the lights.

ive never used you brand of nutes so i had to go look them up. but i think if you add the missing parts you will see improvement. the moisture meter woodi suggested is a good tool for learning to water  and small pots will need more attention.  hope that all helped and you get them turned around.

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sorry forgot the epsom spray i only spray 2 times about a week or 2 apart, once when they first start flower and a week or 2 after

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as far as watering I see you have been doing it every other day, and the pot is light when you watered. does it take the second day to get light?  I have only grown 1 plant in a small container, but it did get to the point of needing watered or fed daily. even some of my larger pots get that way in mid flower. 

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@twisted1 I watered northern lights last night (approx 16 hours ago) and the pot still has some weight to it, just checked and I wouldn't say it feels light yet. Although it may do tonight, which will be 24 hours after the water. I'll keep an eye on that.

I'm currently watering 100ml each water/feed and it feels about right that it needs the next water/feed, after 2 days. Could it be that I should slightly reduce to say 60ml and do it everyday?

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@pistoleer youll get a feel for it.

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you could try to increase the amount until you have a very slight run off that may help make the 48 hours between watering

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my final thought from the pictures and my last comment: definitely over watering I usually water till about 15% water runoff from the bottom of the pot. Then it’s about 2 to 3 days till they dry out in my environment, remember plants will uptake water more fast or more slow at different times throughout its life. Plants health can also play a role in water uptake. There is definitely to much nitrogen due to the dark leaves, skinny growth, and the leaves clawing. as the plant fills out the pot it will need to be watered more often so always check by simply putting your pointer finger up to your first knuckle and if it’s dry then it’s time to water. If you would like to be more thorough check in different places. 

The PH meter: your probe can be thrown off and not work right if you use it in water with nothing in it like distilled water. You want to have about 200 parts per million (ppm) in your water before you use the meter on the water or it can damage your probe depending on the meter. You can buy trace elements online or I use trace minerals from the pet store for plants in fish tanks which is a lot more cheap. But they are really concentrated so you can get a cup of water and try to pour the tiniest amount of it you can in that cup. Then after mixing the cup a little pour some of the cup into the distilled water. You can also just add a little bit of your nutrients to the water, but trace minerals will cover all of the micro nutrients and will help keep everything balanced.

personally this is why I use the liquid tester kit that is like $8 instead of the PH meters. If you are interested I have tips to make the liquid tester kit fast. It’s already more easy than running a meter.

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@pistoleer

Posted by: @twisted1

you can mix up a teaspoon of epsom salt with a quart of water and spray it on the leaves to help just try not to spray the flowers, just take the plants out from under the lights or dim lights when you spray and wait until its dry to replace them under the light

Sound like you have had some great help. Keep in mind that if your meter is actually calibrated,  then that 5.8 pH will prevent the uptake of Ca and Mg through the soil, so definitely go with the spray like @Twisted1 said (when lights go off).You should see improvement on that issue in about 24 hours. 

Trouble is, that is only part of the problem, and I bet the Twisted is right about the flower food, which would lead to too much N if you are using growth food, which would cause the clawing.  However, clawing of the leaves can also be caused by a lack of copper and zinc, and lack of zinc also causes interveinal chlorosis. Since you may be dealing with the wrong nutes, there could be (likely) more than one deficiency here.

On the watering issue, I agree with @twisted1 about large plants drinking a lot in flower and needing frequent watering. However, if the plants were mine, I would make a change to a bigger pot because it sounds as if they are root-bound, and I for one like soil, in part, so that I don't have to do something every day with the plants. How big are your pots? I'd go with at least 5 gallons, and put an inexpensive Blumat XL carrot in each 5gallon pot to keep an even moisture level. Hope that helps!

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