• Ali Bongo, Head Shop UK, buy best bong UK, Percys Grow Room
Notifications
Clear all

UPDATE IS IMMINENT!!! PREPARE TO STOP POSTING, DO NOT SIGN UP!

Chelated micronutrients

danizeap
(@danizeap)
Eucalipto
100 Likes
250 Likes
Forum Regular
Points: 1233

Hello! hope everyone is good, 

I am learning a bit of chem today and wanted to talk about chelated micronutrients. 

I have been having trouble finding a good source of calmag so I have created my own solution with a local lab. All my macro nutrients in the solution are good but when it comes to micro I have a question. In Sensi Cal Mag Xtra from advanced nutrients, the solution I am copying and producing, all the micronuts are EDDHA. Iron, Manganese and Zinc have chelating agents that react to the metal ions to have a stable water soluble complex. Unlucky for me I have only been able to find Iron EDDHA and none of the others. As I learn and feel free to school me please, chelators work to maintain the water soluble stable when exposed to pH of 7 and up, which shouldn't be an issue for me since I keep my pH from 5.5 to 6.5.   

Is this the only reason why these micronutrients have chelating agents? or is there something else.

Will I be fine using this new mix, with only Iron having a chelating agent? 

Thanks!  

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : September 2, 2020 8:30 pm
Hart, DIY.Rik and monkeydo liked
TempleGrower
(@templegrower)
Myrcene
100 Likes
250 Likes
500 Likes
1K Likes
Completed Diary
Grow Off Diary
2.5K Likes
Youtube 1K Views
5K Likes
Mentor
Plant of the Month Winner
Complete Grow Off Diary
Canada
Respected Member
Points: 19800

@danizeap

I'm no chemist, but essentially yes, chelates are there to prevent those micro nutrients (Mn, Zn, Cu, Fe) from precipitating out of solution and becoming unavailable to the plant. Those elements in their ionic forms are quite reactive and so chelates protect them from the hostile, oxygen rich environment with which it would otherwise precipitate out of. Essentially, they prevent rusting. And to my knowledge, that's the only reason they're used. 

In theory, keeping your irrigation water/soil mass below a pH of 7 should allow the ions to stay in solution/available but in reality, there is a lot more going on in the rhizosphere than just properly pH'd water (root exudates, for example). So best to stick with chelated nutes, IMO.

Speaking to using only EDDHA as a chelating agent, I'm not too sure about that.. it will definitely work for iron as that's what the product is, but as for those other elements, I'm not sure that will work. The amount of EDDTA in the chelated iron product is probably only enough for that iron, and I those other elements might not even be able to be chelated using EDDTA.. that I am not at all familiar with (again, not a chemist). I know the 15-30-15 fertilizer I have here has Iron, Manganese, Zinc and Copper all chelated using 1.24% EDTA, but I am not sure how that is actually done in terms of the interaction each type has with the various levels of other nutrients (too much Ca lessens EDTA's effectiveness, for example) so, maybe the lab you're using would be able to help out in that department.

I have a soil chemistry book downstairs that probably has a proper explanation in it but, it's too late to read that tonight so I'll try to remember to have a look another time.. 🤓 

Hope that helps tho!

Life's a garden...dig it - Joe Dirt
Supersoil recipe (by me!) --> https://percysgrowroom.com/organic-super-soil-recipe/

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 3, 2020 6:57 am
Hart, monkeydo, danizeap and 1 people liked
DIY.Rik
(@diy-rik)
Ocimene
100 Likes
250 Likes
500 Likes
Forum Regular
Points: 1720

@danizeap this sounds way beyond me. But chelating agents, aren't these found naturally in things like Phosphorus amendments and barley malt? 

I was always under the impression the Humic and Fulvic acids are to do with chelated nutrient formations. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 3, 2020 1:24 pm
Hart, TempleGrower, monkeydo and 1 people liked
danizeap
(@danizeap)
Eucalipto
100 Likes
250 Likes
Forum Regular
Points: 1233

@templegrower this is amazing thanks! 

So we are good with Iron being EDDTA, with the other micro nutes in their ionic form the only danger would be that the plant is not properly ingesting them? This would be acceptable since I have other nutes, not made by me here, that have these micro nutes protected by chelates. So I can even out and not have any deficiency. The main goal of this solution that I created lies more in the macro portion of the formula. However if there is other problems, or if macro nutes act differently along properly chelated micro nutes and thats why they are in the original formula, then I would re consider feeding this to my plant. 

Thanks man!

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : September 3, 2020 2:29 pm
Hart and monkeydo liked
TempleGrower
(@templegrower)
Myrcene
100 Likes
250 Likes
500 Likes
1K Likes
Completed Diary
Grow Off Diary
2.5K Likes
Youtube 1K Views
5K Likes
Mentor
Plant of the Month Winner
Complete Grow Off Diary
Canada
Respected Member
Points: 19800

@diy-rik

Yep, both fulvic and humic acid are natural chelating agents - there are many others but yeah, basically the natural analogues of the synthetic EDTA, EDDHA, etc. That's what I was alluding to when I mentioned the rhizosphere and root exudates... much more going on down there than just food/water in - waste out. Grasses, for example, are very good at producing their own chelates (aka ligands) that are able to sequester iron in the soil that would be unavailable to other plants in the same environment.

Again, I'm not a chemist but I'd venture a guess that the functional groups in both sets of molecules are doing the same thing, though the humic and fulvic acids are orders of magnitude more complicated in terms of their structures.

Life's a garden...dig it - Joe Dirt
Supersoil recipe (by me!) --> https://percysgrowroom.com/organic-super-soil-recipe/

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 3, 2020 6:45 pm
Hart, DIY.Rik and monkeydo liked
TempleGrower
(@templegrower)
Myrcene
100 Likes
250 Likes
500 Likes
1K Likes
Completed Diary
Grow Off Diary
2.5K Likes
Youtube 1K Views
5K Likes
Mentor
Plant of the Month Winner
Complete Grow Off Diary
Canada
Respected Member
Points: 19800

@danizeap

Hmm, well if you are using another product that already has those chelated micro-nutes, I wouldn't worry about getting them in your home-made solution, especially if you don't have any chelating agents for them. The danger would be that if the pH climbs, the nutes in ionic form would react and fall out of solution, which the plant has no use for. But again, if the other product has those chelated micro-nutes already included, I think you should be okay, and I wouldn't worry about adding them to your new solution. And if there is already iron in the other product you're using, I'd just use that rather than adding in your own.

The macro nutes' uptake shouldn't be affected by the inclusion or exclusion of micro nutes in the same formula.. at least I wouldn't think so. I'm sure you can run into problems, depending on the form/amount of the micro nute you are adding/pH of the solution but again, out of my scope, haha. I did terrible in my organic chemistry class so... 😭. I do know too much of certain nutes can impair the uptake of other nutes (too much Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium or Phosphorus can hinder Potassium uptake, for example). But that's usually more to do with how much is in the medium (grower error), and not so much to do with the fertilizer itself.

One thing to consider if available to you is a kelp-based product (liquid kelp, kelp meal, etc). Kelp has something like 88 or more available phyto-nutrients - wayyy more than your typical 5-7 chelated micros that the average fertilizer contains. Don't ask me to name them either, lol. Obviously the source is very important but, it seems to me that kelp would have most of not all of the micros needed, plus a shit-ton more beneficial compounds plants enjoy. It's not to be used for a primary fertilizer as the NPK is usually quite low but, that's what I use (along with manure/compost/compost tea) to get all those delicious micro-nutes  plants crave. Just a thought.  😎 

Otherwise, I think you should be okay.

Do keep in mind that I grow in soil and have basically no experience actually using bottled nutes. This is all coming from my background in earth/soil science so, in theory this all makes sense to me. But like I said, my actual chemistry skills are quite lacking and this is pure Organic Chemistry so, take it with a grain of NaCl. 😉 

Life's a garden...dig it - Joe Dirt
Supersoil recipe (by me!) --> https://percysgrowroom.com/organic-super-soil-recipe/

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 3, 2020 7:18 pm
Hart, DIY.Rik, danizeap and 1 people liked
DIY.Rik
(@diy-rik)
Ocimene
100 Likes
250 Likes
500 Likes
Forum Regular
Points: 1720

@templegrower I get the exudates bit. One reason why I love amendments and organics. Its interesting, well to me it is lol. 

Just picking the brains of people TG. Want to get my head around the science but more. 

Thanks matey Fist Bump Bong  

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 4, 2020 7:01 am
TempleGrower
(@templegrower)
Myrcene
100 Likes
250 Likes
500 Likes
1K Likes
Completed Diary
Grow Off Diary
2.5K Likes
Youtube 1K Views
5K Likes
Mentor
Plant of the Month Winner
Complete Grow Off Diary
Canada
Respected Member
Points: 19800

@diy-rik

Haha you and me both man.. it's so damn interesting, and super relevant too obviously but, definitely takes some reading, and then re-reading lol. My grasp on these concepts is pretty limited too - I usually end up doing a lot of googling for most things so.. 😉 

Life's a garden...dig it - Joe Dirt
Supersoil recipe (by me!) --> https://percysgrowroom.com/organic-super-soil-recipe/

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 4, 2020 4:31 pm
Hart liked
DIY.Rik
(@diy-rik)
Ocimene
100 Likes
250 Likes
500 Likes
Forum Regular
Points: 1720

I can vouch for the Kelp. Although I did hear that it can still have a high sodium content so be careful if you're using any other salt based nutritients, or you may get lockout? Just a thoght that ran past my kind reading through, some good info as always TG. 

I really can't keep up woth all the chemistry lol. 

Kelp is for the win though. A good quality source is important. It can be the oceans way of cleaning and it can store deposits of heavy metals etc......

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 5, 2020 12:33 pm
Hart and monkeydo liked
monkeydo
(@monkeydo)
Valencene
100 Likes
250 Likes
500 Likes
Patreon
1K Likes
Diary Writer
Student
2.5K Likes
Instagram Admin
Pangolin Hunter
5K Likes
Plant of the Month Winner
Completed Diary
Stoner Movie Club
USA
Veteran
Points: 52164

I regularly use kelp foliar feed and soil feed for seedlings. It really does accelerate young plants growth and both roots and leaves seem to love it. Generally it’s discontinued in my tent around week 3 veg but it could easily be used for lots longer if you prefer. This is excellent stuff to get your seedlings growing fast.

Random acts of kindness make the world a better place

ReplyQuote
Posted : September 5, 2020 3:58 pm
Hart liked

In our cannabis growers forum, we have guides to growing cannabis, cannabis grow dairies that cover growing weed in hydroponics, soil and coco. Find the help you need, by either, using the search box, or asking for help in the forum.

Our cannabis growers website also has competitions where you can win free weed seeds. As a member you will also have discount codes for cannabis seeds, and LED grow Lighting.
Our Cannabis Growers Forum is for educational purposes and we encourage our members to check their country of residence legislation before germinating a marijuana seed.

This site is here because we want to help you grow your own cannabis for personal use. Therefore, any member who is suspected of growing cannabis for commercial gains will be banned immediately.

Please read our forum rules, and enjoy the site.

Percys Grow Room Facebook Page, Cannabis grower forum fb page,
percys grow room twitter icon, cannabis growers forum
pintrest logo percys grow room, cannabis forum
percys grow room instagram logo

Find us on all social networks! Just search for Percys Grow Room